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tv   Erin Burnett Out Front  CNN  December 9, 2013 4:00pm-5:01pm PST

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with unemployment is not worrying about the compensation getting the jobs. i'm not interested in the website, i'm interested in getting the uninsured insured. the tyranny of television, you have to say thank you to both. go back to our fire back question. do you support extending unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed. right now 54% of you say yes. 46% say no. >> i can't believe it. it continues online at crossfire. i'm van jones. >> and i'm newt gingrich. erin burnett starts right now. out front, next, the memorial for nelson mandela will be unlike any we have ever seen, and who will be sitting next to the president of the united
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states? then the nsa is spying on america video gamers. what are they hoping to find in the worlds of war craft. and what happened to cause a plane to crash in san francisco? is the problem getting worse? i'm jake tapper in for erin burnett. just hours from now, the president and nearly 100 other world leaders will join thousands of mourners to pay respects to nelson mandela. the staid july is seat 94,000 people. and every seat is expected to be filled. it will rival the funeral for winston churchill. in addition, president obama,
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george w. bush, president clinton and president carter will be there. raul castro will be there. will mandela's message of forgiveness resonate? and a time crunch of epic proportions, will the venue be safe? first on the security front. joy worked -- joe worked on sec for pope john paul's funeral. what could go wrong? but a lot could go wrong. >> yeah, south africa's not entirely a safe place. you have a large somali community there, with connections to shabaab. monitoring these will not be
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easy. you have the problem of a lot of weapons coming through africa, central african republic, libya and the rest of it. so there is the potential danger to secure all these people. >> the u.s. delegation a small part of the crowd. how much control can the u.s. secret service have, realistically? >> well, it's entirely up to the host government. the south african government has hosted u.s. presidential visits in the past. they do a good job. but, again, it's a very difficult situation. you have 100 heads of state means you have 100 armed security details for those hides of state. some of them aren't friendly. it's a very difficult situation and something that requires a lot of flexibility from the white house and the secret service because they can't do what they would normally do on a major overseas trip like this. >> speaking of flexibility, you were telling me it was an opportunity for presidents or
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vice presidents or whom ever to have a pull aside with a world leader that they might never actually talk to in any other circumstance. >> right. you have all these heads of state. it's a real opportunity to see people that might be difficult politically under normal circumstances to shake hands with. so it's an opportunity. we'll see if the venue lends itself to that. but a lot of meetings can go on behind the scenes. >> bob, the venue itself is pretty vague. it can hold almost 100,000 people. where do you start in securing a venue this size with this many high value targets on hand? >> it really, it is up to the locals to do this. the secret service can provide close protection, but, you know, any major armed group has got to be stopped by the locals. they've got to have military units on hand. they've got to keep the crowds away, roll in the usual suspects. put them away from the event,
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things like that. but the secret service has just got to focus on the president and the other dignitaries it's responsible for and that's as far as it can go and the rest is up to the south africans. >> one other thing is the planning normally for something like this, for a major international trip with many other world leaders. somebody like you, the u.s. secret service, here we literally have a matter of days. >> right. that can also play to your benefit, though. the bad guys, you know, like to plan. al qaeda likes long planning periods. not knowing when this event was going to take place, obviously removes that. so you have a little bit of a short time frame which can play to their advantage, to our advantage. but, again, a trip like this we normally would have been there two months ahead of time, looking at the details. so it is a tough situation and flexibility is going to be the
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key to getting through it. >> thank you so much. now on the diplomatic front, presidential historian douglas brinkley. raul castro and president obama, same stage, separated by just four speakers on the official program. how does this work? do they look the other way? do they exchange mess andtries? do they take this as a real opportunity for diplomacy? >> i'm sure raul castro would like to have it as an opportunity for diplomacy, but i'm sure president obama doesn't want to be seen as too buddy-buddy with somebody who's seen as a nemesis to the united states. you don't want to do the big smile and meet and greet with castro. you don't want to be winging foreign policy, making big decisions at a funeral. however, away from cameras'
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grae glare, they might be able to get a word in. if obama can sneak it in without being taped doing it, he might try it. >> i heard a story from somebody in charge of white house security who was telling me about an event like this that provided an opportunity for a high-ranking u.s. official to meet with a u.s. enemy, but it did provide an opportunity that never would have been there before there was an opportunity for actual diplomacy. of course, on the other hand, as you pointed out, such things can be considered huge mistakes. there was the incident when president obama in 2009 was seen taking a picture, was taking a picture of him shaking hands hu.
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if cameras aren't around it might be with it. but if they are, to be avoided. >> exactly. you know, this is really a day where everybody's supposed to honor nelson mandela. i'm not sure it's a day of world foreign policy-making for nations. but as i mentioned, face time between world leaders is always beneficial if you can do it the right way. but we view cuba as our enemy, this is not the time for president obama to be embracing him. nelson mandela was great friends with bill clinton and barack obama and he was friends with gaddafi and castro. he's like the man of the year, nelson mandela, the time of all this global strife he still has a role as healing agent, bringing different people together on stage. >> and that's in fact something that mandela's former personal assistant said, tomorrow people
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should all be honoring their relationship with madiba, if it means shaking hands with the enemy, yes, i would like to see that. that is what nelson mandela was and is bringing people together despite their differences. i guess that's the point is what could be more of a tribute to nelson mandela than people who'd normally would not talk, talking, and i'm not saying they have to be embracing or back slapping or even smiling, but talking. that would, i, might argue, be the greatest trigg tribute to nelson mandela that could you have at a nelson mandela memorial. >> you know how we have our state of the union addresses. and everybody watches the body language. obviously that's going to be a big part of the drama tomorrow is how castro and obama interact, but yes, if you can have a very serious respigectfu talk. we used to call barack obama
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no-drama obama. this isn't his style to go and style the show by making a grand gesture like this. but any time somebody wins a nobel peace prize like mandela, the world embraces them and the rules are broken. i remember sadat's funeral, all these people that weren't talking ended up talking at sadat's funeral and had a great healing effect in some ways. anything's possible here, but i don't think this is going to be a breakthrough moment. i think the big thing is what you just talked about, security. can we get through this without some horrible terrorist event or some major bad moment occurring. so i think everybody will be trying to get through the day. >> thank you so much. still to come. why is the nsa spying on video gamers. and then, what caused this plane to crash in san francisco earlier this year? new details are emerging about
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the flight's final moments. and later, some of america's major cities are bracing for some real snow. so you can see like right here i can just... you know, check my policy here, add a car, ah speak to customer service, check on a know, all with the ah, tap of my geico app. oh, that's so cool. well, i would disagree with you but, ah, that would make me a liar. no dude, you're on the jumbotron! whoa. ah...yeah, pretty much walked into that one.
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is the national security agency infiltrating video games? documents released by former nsa contractor edward snowden she in 2008, the agency planted sleeper agents inside games like world of war craft and second life, amid concerns that those games could be used by terror groups to coordinate attacks. the documents were published
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today. i talked to spencer ackerman, u.s. national security editor at the guardian which was one of those who broke the story, and i asked him how a game like world of war craft could possibly be a hotbed for terrorist activity. >> world of war craft, like many other really popular addictive, immersive individual yvideo gam deeply, deeply richly developed fantasy game in which you go on quests along with your virtual friends and face things like weird creatures and other things that i don't know about because of course i would never play these types of games. no, never. >> would a terrorist group use such a game to launch an attack? >> well, that's kind of unclear, but the suspicion around the
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late 2,000s was that as more of our lives migrate into multiple online role playing games like war craft and others, more people would seek to use them as sort of online sanctuaries, where you wouldn't think intelligence agencies like the nsa would be watching so they could potentially discuss planning an attack like that. >> now the x box live console has more than 48 million players. how many people were possibly unknowingly playing with spies? all of them? >> it's a great question and potentially, yes. we have a great deal of difficulty determining precisely how many people's online gaming communities were infiltrated or what the, what the real exposure was. it's not as simple as, you know, asking someone, well, guy's have you seen lq lately. >> they say that their programs
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are all centered on valid foreign intelligence targets. have any terrorists, to your knowledge, actually been caught by doing this? >> not to my knowledge. there's been a great deal of effort, not just by nsa, but by the u.s. central command to try and put people pretending to be either gamers or, you know, people in chat rooms, otherwise seemingly unaffiliated with these groups to try and penetrate these networks, but rereally haven't seen either a, these online environments lid to terrorist plots, or, b, how much intelligence was really useful out of them. >> our thanks. new light on the crash of the asiana crash. the pilot's overreliance on computers in the cockpit may
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have been to blame. three passengers were killed, dozens more were injured. a federal hearing will begin tomorrow to review the report, and tom foreman has more. >> oh, my god. >> reporter: two key questions concerning the asiana air crash. as the jet approached, why did the pilots fail to notice as the plane's speed plummeted dangerously low. it killed three people and injured almost 200 more. >> i thought, you know, that was it. i thought i'm dying. >> reporter: aviation analysts say the crash is a warning. computerized ought make has clearly improved safety in decades, but relying on it too much is a real danger. >> ought make definitely helps in most circumstances. but you have to treat it as help
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rather than exclusively letting it fly the airplane. the thing to remember is that no matter what happens, it's still an airplane, and pilots still need to be able to fly the airplane. >> reporter: and if you think asiana was a freak occurrence, think again. another one happened just in england. that's why experienced pilots like captain keith walsinger says -- >> the pilot should have his hands on the throttle itself. you have a feel for where the throttle position should be. >> reporter: we don't have definitive word yet on what caused the asiana crash, but
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it's spurring deeper discussions about passenger safety, accountability and making sure computers are in the cockpit to help pilots fly the planes, not the other way around. i'm tom foreman in washington. and our thanks to tom foreman. still ahead, what's the worst way to get fired? we found out how a big ceo got the boot. and rapid pand paul will be guest live. tunity, with ideas, with ambition. i'm thinking about china, brazil, india. the world's a big place. i want to be a part of it. ishares international etfs. access to developed markets, emerging markets and single countries. find out why nine out of ten large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal.
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tonight's money and power,
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two words no one ever wants to hear -- you're fired. remember when sarah silverman says she was fired from snl via fax? and one firing was caught on tape last month and it went viral. >> put that camera down right now. able, you're fired, out. >> today there's the example of george zimmer. he told it fortune magazine he didn't like the way he was fired. he was fired over e-mail, he said, which leads us to ask, is there a right way and a wrong way to get canned? bruce winestein, the ethics guy, firing by e-mail, fax, ftext? is this a good way? >> thumbs down to being fired by
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text or e-mail. >> what are the only ways to do it? >> the best way is face-to-face. if you recall the movie up in the air, it shows how difficult it can be to have those conversations, but with spiderman, he says with great power comes great responsibility. if you have to let somebody go, the best way to do it is face-to-face. >> i don't mean to fact check you, but i'm pretty sure it was peter parker's uncle. >> the spiderman genre. >> i had to step in. what's behind these impersonal firings? people don't want to create a paper trail? sloth? what do you think? >> managers will say it's easier that way, but it's easier on the
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managers, not on the employees. and employees generally want to be treated with respect, with the honor and dignity that is owed to them. so most people prefer to be told face-to-face. no one likes to hear bad news, a woman broke up with me saying i just don't feel a spark. i appreciate that as opposed to not returning my phone calls or any of the other ways that a lot of us used to let people go. >> about that's, i mean, and that's very nice of her to go out on a third date with you and break up with you that way, but it's also much more time-consuming and for a business person, it might be, they don't have the time to be nice, just fire that person, whether it's by text or e-mail, whatever, get it done. we've got to move on. >> it doesn't take -- i disagree. it doesn't take that much more time to sit down and have a conversation with someone. we're not talking about going on some exotic retreat and playing
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golf and having that kind of situation. but like george clooney did in up in the air. it takes a couple more minutes, but it shows respect and it's the honorable thing to do, the ethical thing to do. it's not the easy thing to do, it's the ethical thing to do. >> appreciate your perspective. thank you for your time. coming up next, this is what it looked like over the weekend, and it might look this way tomorrow in several cities. and one american community is close to making it legal to shoot down drones. why they feel it's necessary. ♪ ♪ here we are, me and you ♪ on the road ♪ and we know that it goes on and on ♪
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a wintry mix of snow and ice is covering much of the country tonight from the southwest to the northeast. freezing weather is causing travel nightmares, flights are canceled and cars are literally piling up on icy roads. more snow on the way tomorrow, targeting the northeast. what can we expect from this next storm system heading right towards us here on the east coast? >> you know, jake, i'll say only snow, because the ice was so bad
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in d.c. and baltimore where people were sliding and also into new york city as well. here's the storm. doesn't look like much, and in fact, compared to the one that hit over the weekend, it isn't much. but 4 inches of snow in any big city will put a dent in air travel. 4,900 planes still in the sky. many of them still delayed an hour or two especially anywhere coming out of the northeast. planes were all delayed a couple hours out of the northeast. here's what's coming. a winter storm warning for philadelphia and the turnpike. 3 to 5 inches of snow that comes down tomorrow morning into tomorrow afternoon. it's a slow-moving storm. eventually, then, tomorrow, it picks up. we're going to get snow probably 6:00 in the morning for dc. but by the time kids get out of school, there will be 4 inches of snow on the ground. do the superintendents wait to see if it snows or send the kids
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home early? there will be cancellations certainly tomorrow. we're going to see 3 to 5 inches in this band. then the snow gets into new york city. bridgewood, back into long island, we're going to see 2 to 4 inches. more out toward the west of the city. but this is it. it moves so fast that it's over. we oftentimes say snow makes snow. take a look at this graphic. this is what this year's? cover looked like. almost 50% of the country covered in snow. last year, only 15% of the country covered in snow. so if it felt cold this fall, it is. >> so, across the country right now, most temperatures are between 10 and 20 degrees below average. how long is this going to last? >> at least for another week, and maybe even longer. it's a jet stream problem.
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we have the jet coming out of where it's cold, back all the way down to the deep south and running up the east coast. and that cold air is allowed to run straight down. far fargo, 22 below. now your car doesn't feel that. but the pets do. the animals outside do. your face does too. make sure the pets don't have to stand there in the wnd. bring them inside if you can. make sure that the water isn't frozen. because water in zero doesn't stay liquid very long. don't like drones watching your every move? shoot them down. a colorado town is about to vote on an order thainance to do jus. it's dividing a tight-knit community and raising questions about how much americans want in their lives. >> reporter: deer trail, colorado, population 598.
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a small town with big american pride, claiming to be home of the world's first rodeo. >> david and goliath. >> reporter: this resident is ready to fight for old west values that he believes are threatened by drones. >> so if you see one overhead, what are you proposing to do? >> i am proposing to shoot it down. >> reporter: he says it was the national defense authorization act that got him fired up. he read about the government's plan to add six bases for drone testing and invest $23 billion into new unmanned aerial vehicles. the faa says thousands of drones could be flying over our heads by 2020. the idea of eyes in the skies he says is not the american way. his message to the government? not to my back yard. so steele drafted a drone-hunting ordinance that goes up for a vote tomorrow.
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a yes vote would give residents the go ahead to shoot down a drone that comes within 1,000 feet of their homes. >> reporter: but you don't want people to take this seriously? >> of course i want them to take it seriously. >> reporter: steele insists he's thought of everything. the ordinance specifies the kinds of ammunition and weapons you can use and put as bounty on recovered drone parts. $25 for the fuse ladies and gentlemen or wing --. >> it's a federal offense to destroy government property. >> reporter: despite opposition, steele's idea has found support. >> i would shoot a drone down if it's peering in my window and if it's where i can nail it. >> reporter: david copley is one of the people who have purchased one of the drone hunting licenses just to make a
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statement. >> people want to display these. also they're very beautiful. >> reporter: they're printed on velum. >> it may not be recognized by state or local government. >> reporter: shooting an unmanned aircraft could result in civil or criminal liability just as would firing at a manned airplane, all of this setting up a possible legal duel. >> the u.s. government declared war on us. this is our response. >> reporter: steele insists he won't be deterred from shooting at a drone but hopes the ordinance would deter drones from passing through deer trail. deer trail, colorado. >> cnn contributor john avlon is
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here with me. i got to see first hand how these things work. i met a group who fly homemade drones. the technology is getting more sophisticated by the day. this is a bigger issue than drones and government drones. this is about a growing anti-government sentiment in this country. what do you see as driving it? >> quewell, you know, it's interesting. this is tapping into deeper emotions. you're absolutely right. distrust in government is at an all-time low. we've lost faith in our institutions. and we have technology outpacing our laws. people thinking it's leading to something that's almost orwell yan. you take rural folks and that plays out. it explodes. so this is going to snowball as long as technology outpaces laws and the people feel the
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government is infringing on their privacy and liberty. >> so when i visited these hobbyists, they were talking about how the faa is going to come up with a rule and basically will have to come, the government, u.s. government, is going to have to determine what to allow the general public to do when it comes to the commercial use of drones. the u.s. government already has drones out there that are used for law enforcement and for what they argue are national security reasons. but we are in a lace in this country where we are bound to confront these issues in a very public way, but there's really been no debate about the u.s. government's use of drones at all. >> and that's one of the reasons i think you're seeing this popular push back, populist push back because folks are frustrated at the fact that the u.s. government is flying drones over their property and they don't know what the government can see. that high level of frustration translates to that hostility.
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government regulates our airspace. but you are making a perfect storm of public sentiment, this distrust, the nsa overreaching, questions about what the government can do with people's computers. this lieads to a toxic is atmosphere. and that's where people's emotions can get out of control. rand paul is thinking about running for president and the things he thinks can bring down the dollar. and the current and ex-presidents in a cramped space. what it's like with more than one president in the room. and protect financial futures. to help communities recover and rebuild. for companies going from garage to global. on the ground, in the air, even into space.
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here's some of what you missed earlier on the lead. baby it's cold outside, and baby, it's only going to get worse. >> they tell us bridges, overpasses, untreated roads are going to be very dangerous. so they're asking people to be very careful when they're out and about. the inmates were not the only criminals there. >> 18 people that have been arrested and charged in relation to this probe.
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kim jong un's uncle has been removed from his post for criminal acts including corruption, womanizing, abusing alcohol. he was also accused of dreaming different dream, whatever that means. >> i don't think he's ever done a perp walk before. we're told that air force one just made a refueling stop, which means the presidents are well on their way to south africa and probably playing soduku right now. i'm in johannesburg. heads of state not the only ones here, of course. tonight, exclusively on 360, you're going to hear my interview with bono. it's all at the top of the hour.
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>> sounds great. thank you so much. no banks, no fees. no inflation. these are the potential perks of this thing called bit coin. but is bit coin really the money of the future? >> bit coin. >> bit coin. >> bit coin. >> reporter: bit coin is all the rage, but what the hell is it? and why should you care? it's an electronic currency, imagine buying and selling without any middleman or banks and in complete anonymity. names of buyers and sellers are never revealed. that's why some call it the wild, wild west for criminals. bit coins are stored in a digital wallet in the cloud. you can buy furniture, flight, even haircuts online and use them at bars, restaurants and other businesses in the real world. there's now even a bit coin atm
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in british columbia. and last year somebody bought a $100,000 car using only bit coins. is it the money of the future? but not everyone is soiled. some can't even get their heads around the concept, including alan greenspan. >> you have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of bit coin is. i haven't been able to do it. maybe somebody else can. >> reporter: for those who can stretch their imagination, here are the they ways to get your hands on bit coins. can you buy them online, transfer them to and from other users or mine them on your computer. that's how new bit coins are created when somebody digs them up by solving complex math problems online. is this the end of the george ca stanza wallet? or is bit coin a bubble about to
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burst? >> and now a man who's always looking for alternatives to the non-gold backed dollar. mr. paul, dr. paul, good to see you. thanks for joining us. so you say if enough people use bit coin it could help bring down the dollar? you think that's well, i think it is the other way, when the dollar is in trouble that will be one of the alternatives. i guess it will be the play on it, and the bit coins are used. but something has to happen to the dollar, so i think that is where the real problem is. and mr. greenspan says he doesn't understand the intrinsic value of a vehicle, and frankly, i can't either. but i want to ask him what about the intrinsic value of a dollar?
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nobody knows what that is. but i think it is an alternative, just one of the alternatives, in the first momentum, then people are going to leave. and the other electronic monies and there will be gold. and we came terribly close to this in 1979 when they took interest rates up to 21% to save the dollar. and maybe next time it won't be so successful. but the dollar has been under attack since the fed was created in 1913. it has lost 97% of its value. and the end stages of a paper currency always goes very quickly although it has been gradual for these hundred years, although there could come a day where i expect it will be panic for the dollar. i want to get your thoughts on some of the big issues of the day. primarily let's talk about your son, senator rand paul of kentucky not hiding the fact
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that he is contemplating a presidential run, you've run three times, i'm sure you've given him much fatherly advice. but share a little bit with us if you would, what should he look at if he pulls the trigger, and do you think he should go for it? >> well, i think he is going to make up his own mind. and i had my opportunity to give him advice when he was much younger. so he is an independent person and very libertarian-minded. and therefore he will make up his own mind. i think he probably will. he has been on tv hinting that he very well might. but i kiddingly say the vadvicei give him, he might be very careful. he is doing very well and might get elected. and that is a great burden and major responsibility but i think he is handling himself quite well. >> do you want him to run? >> i want him to do what he wants to do.
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i'm probably not you know, too much -- i encourage other people to do what they want to with their lives. >> all right, fair enough. so i want to ask you your views on this potential deal with iran. because i am trying to figure out where you would be on it, and my gut tells me that you would probably be inclined to support a diplomatic deal with iran. but i don't want to speak for you, a new usa today research poll shows 32% of those polled improve of the nuclear interim pact with iran, 42% of those disapprove. what do you think? >> yes, i think under the circumstances it is a great breakthrough. and in the campaign you heard me say we ought to do more diplomacy and shooting from the hip. and with syria, now it turns out there were many lies told to us,
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even about the sarin gas, so i would say diplomacy, even as it is available and i think about how kennedy and kruschev got together, i think it is very good, wish i had started sooner. i hope it doesn't end like some of the other negotiations have with iran, in 2003, there was an agreement that they would back off on enenrichmerienenrichment our side didn't fulfill their promises they went to the legal enenrichme enrich that they were entitled to, i don't want it to be an excuse to come down hard on iran, i'm always upholding congress to do the right thing and curtail the presidential potential powers i'm afraid congress will come in and just block this by saying no, what we need are more sanctions to see how many more iranian people we
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can kill, like we did in iraq. look at how the sanctions killed millions and millions of people in that consequence of that war. and so i -- i hope the president is going to be successful to this. i'm cheering him on. >> all right, former congressman ron paul, thank you so much, happy holidays if i don't talk to you before then. and the exclusive group coming together to honor nelson mandela, coming up next. [ male announcer ] alka seltzer plus presents the cold truth. [ coughs, sneezes ] [ sniffles ] i have a big meeting when we land,
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president obama and other presidents are on their way to the funeral for nelson mandela, the world is quickly preparing for what may be the largest gathering of heads of state since winston churchhill's funeral in 1965. representing the united states alone will be president obama, george bush, and president carter, making up one of the most prestigious flights in the world. more than 90 leaders will plan to attend nelson mandela's memorial tuesday in johannesburg. inside air force one, george bush, former first lady clinton, the president and chelsea are flying in and linking up with the rest of the club tomorrow.
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president george h.w. bush who has been in poor health for sometime will not be making the trip. together they're set for an almost 20-hour flight, even though there is only one bed on board. >> air force one is a very intimate setting. so that is a place where you can have quieter conversations. once you get to the massive events it is very hard to have a real conversation. >> these long flight, believe it or not, can forge friendships. in 1981, president reagan could not attend the funeral of anwar sadat. 25 years later, jimmy carter eulogized his long-time friend. >> for our nation, i want to thank my predecessor. >> later, president george bush
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and clinton were fighting, but years later when they attended the funeral of king hussein, that partnership forged. the journey itself holds the potential for conflict and resolution on a first-class scale. >> it is going to make a big, big difference in the atmospherics on air force one, with george w. bush there with his successor. that president bush has been so reserved in making any negative comments. he is not second-guessing his successor. and i think that the obama people really appreciate that. >> this gang has seen more than usual of one another, in april, they suited up to attend the presidential george w. bush in austin. later, they honored the march on
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washington. >> no former president likes to be marginalized. they always like to be the center of attention, here we have four centers of attention? that is a lot to juggle. >> but for all of their smiles, a stage shared by leaders can seem small at times, so safe travel to the nation's leaders today. may you get along well with your seat mate. >> that is all for us, thank you for joining us, "ac360" starts right now. jake, thank you very much. good evening, everyone, as one official here in johannesburg put it, the world is coming to south africa to pay tribute to nelson mandela, the father of south africa. it is the single largest gathering of heads of state and gives just in a few hours, president obama, former president george w. bush and hill